Aren't horomancy and probability physical type? Because they are physical variables?
For me Knowledge magic is about magic itself that's why I've included "metamagic".
We should be able to have a common chat so everyone can talk about this before editing any further.
Greenbernny2 (talk) 22:56, July 15, 2017 (UTC) GreenBernny2
Dean Fogg, said Knowledge basically touches all branches of Magic. Now about Disciplines Metacomposition is a type of Knowledge Discipline.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 04:16, July 16, 2017 (UTC)
Metacomposition is the only known Knowledge discipline. Metamagic is probably also Knowledge.
About what Dean Fogg said, he said Knowledge touches outher discipline types but we should be able to draw a line between Physical, Psychic and Knowledge. And too do that we should be able to agree in what Knowledge actually is. As I said, for me, it is the branch of magic that deals with magic itself... but as this is not cannon, the fandom should come to a conclusion all together.
Greenbernny2 (talk) 11:26, July 16, 2017 (UTC)
Dean Fogg, said it was part Physical part Psychic as there really isn't a branch it doesn't touch on. Knowledge is the change, understanding, and study of Magic as a whole. So Knowledge at least touches Physical, Psychic, Natural, Healing, Illusion, and Travelers. But where knowledge differ from the other six types, is not to be specifically aligned with the others. The way Dean Fogg explained, Knowledge students can develop there skills in all types of Magic as their type touches all branches. Julia's specific discipline can alter and influence spells. So Knowledge students are like Jack of Trades, but they don't practice the specific disciplines within the other types but they have some noticeable skill in all branches.
Take Alice for example. In Season 2, she thought she couldn't grow a tree good in Fillory as she isn't a Natural Type. This was negated by the power of Ember she had that increased her power and skills. Now take Julia, she has shown types of Magic in many branches.
With Marina she cast a sleeping spell on Quinten. This could be a type of Psychic spell. She could create a fireball, likely a physical spell. She could create doorways between places with mirrors, taught by Richard likely a traveler spell. Julia can use all or more than one of the branches to some degree as being a Knowledge student her power touches all branches. But she can't use the specific disciplines within other branches.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 16:15, July 16, 2017 (UTC)
Sorry but I highly disagree with what you say, because you are purely basing it in the show. So let's go part by part.
Dean Fogg, said it was part Physical part Psychic as there really isn't a branch it doesn't touch on". I agree in that but I think what he meant to say is Knowledge is a study that does a lot of research in magic, therefore it has to STUDY other disciplines, it doesn't mean they ARE other disciplines.
Knowledge students are like Jack of Trades, but they don't practice the specific disciplines within the other types but they have some noticeable skill in all branches.". I don't think they can develop a bit of every discipline, I think they can understand the theory beyond every type of magic, practicing it all (and actually everyone can practice all types of disciplines, but I'll get to that later.). Julia's discipline is very versatile in this case, but I am sure she won't levitate as easily as a Physical Kid, or read minds as easily as a Psychic, etc.
In Season 2, she thought she couldn't grow a tree good in Fillory as she isn't a Natural Type. This was negated by the power of Ember she had that increased her power and skills." This is where I disagree the most. Remenber when she said "I am not a Natural." and Quentin said "But you known the spell, we all do, we just suck at it". When he says this he heavily implies that everyone can do every type of magic but magicians have a certain inclination to one specific strain of it.
Which is actually what the books state. The book mentions a lot of times how Brakebills is assigning discipline just because it's a tradition and a social thing. Beyond Quentin in the books even says that having a discipline is just "having a bit more ease in one type of magic than another" but kinda irrelavant cause everyone can execute everything. Eliot, Penny, Quentin, Alice, Janet, Richard, Josh and Anaïs cast defensive spells around their New York house, and, even though they are different disciplines, they all can do it. Penny is able to use telekinesis, Alice can transform into a dragon, all them can do battle magic, Josh can do portals, etc. even though it's not their discipline.
All this to say Knowledge is not an almagation of all discipline types, Knowledge is a discipline by itself! I honestly believe that Knowledge is "the magic that deals with itself" because just think about it. Meta-composition is the ability to understand theory beyond spells and reshape them. That doesn't fit in any other disciplines. It's not physical, it's not natural, much less healing, etc. But you known what it is? It's the ability to understand magic itself and reshape it. Like Metamagic. Metamagic is impossible to be anyother discipline, but it's very close to metacomposition, the difference being they reshape manipulate spells that are already in work.
I could go on about this forever, but I think I am done, my text is too big anyways :)
Greenbernny2 (talk) 16:53, July 16, 2017 (UTC)
You basically made my point. Maybe I didn't explain about Alice enough. My point is, most Magicians are aligned to specific spectrums of Magic Quinton, Alice, Eliot, and Margo are aligned to Physical Magic. It's not they can't use others, but they might not be good in some others. Knowledge students like Julia manipulate Magic itself in specific ways. They discover, manipulate, deepen, and understand magic. It's not that Knowledge is the best branch of Magic. More as they often can use and reshape Magic from all branches. Julia's Disciple with the Knowledge Branch, is specifically to reshape magic. But even with this, she still might be better in one branche of magic than another. She just has talent for all branches in the way of reshaping magic. Yes using the TV version and have yet to order the books.
If I'm not mistaken doesn't the books list Julia as a Psychic type? But that aside Knowledge Students are like scholars or researcher they just create, reshape, or understand magic. They don't go out and try them like typical Magicians. The way Fogg explained they deepen Magic and share their discoveries.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 17:43, July 16, 2017 (UTC)
My main point is. According to TV Dean Fogg. Knowledge is a branch of Magic not just a Discipline within the Knowledge branch like Julia's Meta-Composition. And he said it basically touches on all branches. But even with this, they may only be able to touch on all branches in certain ways.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 17:46, July 16, 2017 (UTC)
Okay so we may agree that Knowledge touches all branches and instead of actively having ease in disciplines, they have ease in understanding and deepen magic.
HOWEVER this doesn't make horomancy or probability their discipline. Because time, weather, optics, and probability are physical variables, constants or even energies NOT reasearch/deepening/reshaping of magic.
I think better disciplines for Knowledge would be something like magical negation, translocation, etc. Disciplines that actually deal with magic itself.
PS: Julia is never assigned a disciplines in the books. She's just a hedge witch (level 250) and in safe house you don't get sorted into disciplines types. Hedges are more about achieving all the levels of spells you can get, all the way up to reversing entropy (something that Maykowsive - or however the name is spelled - shows the Brakebillars but never lets them try.).
Greenbernny2 (talk) 19:43, July 16, 2017 (UTC)
Not to play sides here, but I think he's actually right (until it's touched on more). Knowledge being a Jack Of All Trades makes sense. How do you study different branches of magic if you are incapable of performing like different branches.
I added horomancy and probability because A) They weren't even added on the wiki for some reason, and B) I feel like they would belong in the most obscure of disciplines since they are the most obscure forms of magic we've seen.
I think Knowledge is actually all Discipline groups. I mean, if all discipline groups have their own branches of disciplines, cant they be a branch of something else? If Physical is a branch, Knowledge is the tree.
Meta Composition, as he said, is the branch of knowledge that those who are able to completely understand the theory (i.e. purpose) of a spell and reshape it (or change it to something else) excell in. This is an expanded description of what was actually described in the first book. "Adjusting" a spell, like Alice did to the Magic Missile spell in her duel with The Beast, is what Meta Composition is. Breaking it down to it's core components, changing it's mechanics, and piecing it back together as a new entity.
The books were the source material, but Grossman has stated that they were limited in what they could accomplish in regards to storytelling. They could'nt show you the author's vision. That's why the show should be regarded as the expanded version.
Alternatively, G, you mentioned casting defensive spells. Combat, Martial, Battle Magic (its all the same) happens to be a very basic, utilitarian form of magic. It's old magic, meaning it was around long before discipline classes were established. It's the kind of magic that was swung like, or in some cases alongside, a sword. (This wasn't explicitly stated in either forms of the material, so I'm going off of it's likely influences and precedents). Defensive magic, such as wards, is also utilitarian. It simply defends, no matter what it goes against. Psychic assaults, fireballs, flying arrows, a large hammer, etc. These are examples of spells that every magician can cast. Quentin even states that the Sumerian Shield Charm is a spell taught to First Years, so defensive magic is one of the first forms of magic a magician knows of.
(BTW in the book it's implied that Jish's discipline was Portal Creation due to his proficiency.) Portal magic is actually Physical, as it concerns matter and energy, specifically the transportation of matter with energy (magic).
Just to clarify. Horomancy is not decisivly Physical. Time is not a physical construct, as it does not expend energy (this isn't Doctor Who) nor is it a form of matter. Probability is purely theoretical, as it is used to mathematically describe the likelihood of possible events.
Optics and weather are the only two that deal with physical, as the former deals with sight, the behavior of light, and the properties of transmission and deflection of other forms of radiation, white the tterlatter deals with both energy and physical matter.
Therefore, Horomancy is only partially physical
Hmm, I can't say which disciplines should be within Knowledge. But this my take. Knowledge is just another Branch of Magic. However unlike the others, Knowledge deals with Magic Knowledge in many aspects. That is why I think Dean Fogg said it touches on basically all branches. But being a Knowledge student just means they have something of foothold when it comes to the research of Magic as awhole. All Magicians in theory can cast spells from all branches, but the success of those spells depend on skill, power, discipline (I mean the dedication to their magic), and many other factors. Knowledge students seem to not so much be best in all branches. But as they are linked body and soul to magic, they can deepen the knowledge in all branches. That is what I meant by Jack-of-Trades. Now maybe Knowledge Disciplines should be limited to ones that actively use Magic Knowledge or Theories or is linked to specific magic research disciplines like Julia's Meta-Composition.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 04:12, July 17, 2017 (UTC)
The part of Knowledge being a discipline that deepens and reshapes all discipline's magic, I agree. And that they can practice all disciplines, I also agree, but again every magician can practice all disciplines, it's just that some magician have a more inclination to do some type of magic.
However, I disagree in Knowledge being "the tree". Knowledge is just another type of magic, it is not magic itself.
Time is not a mathematical construct, it's a physical variable. Probabilities however are mathematical in nature.Greenbernny2 (talk) 07:38, July 17, 2017 (UTC)
Time is only considered a physical property when combined with three dimensional space, which it is then referred to as spacetime, but that's in really technical physics and it is listed as a property not a variable.
Also, in my stating that Knowledge is the tree is not me saying that Knowledge is magic, but that Knowledge delves into each branch. How do you expect to study something without interacting with it directly.
I don't know if Time is purely only a physical variable. As in the underworld a spirit world time flows there.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 15:03, July 17, 2017 (UTC)
Wouldn't the image when Julia for time-line #39 shows Dean Fogg her Meta-Composition? After all it was that act that described her as a Knowledge type.[[User:Twilight Despair 5|]] ([[The God of Creation]]) (talk) 22:22, July 21, 2017 (UTC)
I have that image somewhere, but I would like to use a gif in the Infobox.... I can post it at the quotes section though
Greenbernny2 (talk) 10:22, July 22, 2017 (UTC)